So let's talk about that show with the singing and the dancing and such.

[magz]

No, not America's Got Talent. No, also not Dancing With the Stars. Try again.

So, Glee eh? I'd just about given up on the show because they lost the plot, and then they found it again with a vengeance. And in the process they made me like Kurt. Well done, Glee.

Let me explain. Kurt in season 1 was... well, okay, he was fabulous, but he wasn't the kind of person I'd hang out with. He was just sort of one-dimensional and sparkly, and it seemed like any drama he had revolved around his sexuality. Too much sparkly gives me a headache, you know? But in this season, even though his problems still tend to revolve around his sexuality, there's a new edge to them. And all of this is Karofsky's fault. With the well-timed bullying storyline, the writers of Glee have given Kurt a new depth that makes his character much more interesting to me -- and, thanks to Max Adler's frankly brilliant acting, this depth has extended to Karofsky as well.

And all of it leads to [stems from?] this:



This is the moment in Glee where, if I hadn't been sitting at my desk, I would've fallen off my chair. My roommate can attest to the fact that for like 2 minutes into the commercial break, all I was capable of doing was yelling "OHMIGOD!" and flailing. And once I was done flailing, I settled down and thunk a bit. And realized how glad I was that Ryan Murphy and co. decided to go the Slap, Slap, Kiss route, even though it's totally a cliché. Not necessarily because now Kurt and Karofsky can go skipping into the sunset hand-in-hand [and after tonight's death threat, I don't think that's even remotely possible anytime soon], but because it brings to light an important thing most people overlook: sometimes bullies are just as emotionally destroyed as the people they push into lockers.

We don't know what Karofsky's issue is. Maybe he grew up in a household where the parents cheerfully discuss how deeply homophobic they are over dinner. Maybe his parents are fine, but his teammates are homophobic enough to make up for it. Maybe the fact that "gay" is still a synonym for "lame" has something to do with it. Whatever the case is, what we've got in Dave Karofsky is, like Kurt shouted, a scared little boy. Based on his previous appearances on the show, we know Karofsky's likely got a learning disability [see the blurb from "Mattress"], so it's probably hard for him to use his words. But what does he have to make up for it? The Fury.

I don't know if Karofsky will be redeemed. Glee has certainly redeemed other bullies -- Puck wanted to flip a port-a-potty with Artie trapped inside, and now he and Artie are best buds; Finn used to throw pee balloons at Kurt and now they're comfortably cohabitating thanks to Burt and Carole. And a lot of people are saying that Karofsky has done things that are entirely irredeemable, especially when it comes to his raging [and self-loathing] homophobia. I think it'll get worse before it gets better in his case, and most likely to the detriment of Kurt's wellbeing. But for the sake of seeing more of Max Adler's fantastic acting -- and for the sake of all those other kids who hate themselves so much because of their upbringing or whatever else that they pick on the people who in reality are a lot like them -- I hope Karofsky does get his redemption.

I'm not talking sunshine and roses with Kurt, here. Kurt's got his massive crush on Blaine to focus on right now, even though I don't really see that progressing beyond friendship. Blaine would be a good mentor for Kurt -- even if he's living vicariously through him by telling Kurt to stand up where he, himself couldn't. [And my god, how hilarious was Mercedes' "Gay, gay, gay, gay gay gay..." hallucination in tonight's episode?] But once things have calmed down to some extent, I'd like to see Karofsky come to some level of self-acceptance and happiness. After all, based on what I've witnessed in my own lifetime, if you take a bully, and make them happy, then there's less pain to go around. Or, if you think mathematically [wherein b represents the bully, r represents rage, c represents contentment, and e² represents everyone else]:

( b - r ) + c = e² + ☺
Yeah, I'm no mathematician. :|

So Kurt and Karofsky. Do I think they'd have some insane hate-fueled makeout sessions? Yeah, totally. Do I want to see Kurt dating him by the end of season 2? Nope. That would just feel too rushed. But there are over a dozen episodes left in the season -- I can see the writers working in a tentative friendship, maybe -- even if Karofsky's at the stage right now where he's scared so shitless that he's making death threats. Friendship. If they do it right, it'll be great. And I'll like Kurt even more as a result -- because not only have I developed a celebrity crush on Max Adler thanks to the bullying storyline on Glee, but this storyline has really showcased just how well Chris Colfer can act.

Comments

[astuta.livejournal.com]

Marry me.

And by that I mean that I agree with everything you said.

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

First marriage proposal in this fandom, score! *fistpump*

COMMENT CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR FURT

[dlgr.livejournal.com]

We don't know what Karofsky's issue is. Maybe he grew up in a household where the parents cheerfully discuss how deeply homophobic they are over dinner. Maybe his parents are fine, but his teammates are homophobic enough to make up for it. Maybe the fact that "gay" is still a synonym for "lame" has something to do with it. Whatever the case is, what we've got in Dave Karofsky is, like Kurt shouted, a scared little boy. Based on his previous appearances on the show, we know Karofsky's likely got a learning disability [see the blurb from "Mattress"], so it's probably hard for him to use his words. But what does he have to make up for it? The Fury.


THIS. From my spec post (http://community.livejournal.com/karofsky_hummel/3126.html#cutid1):
I can only assume Karofsky's dad is an ex-Texan that's all about football and forced his boy to play a-la-Emiilo Estevez in Breakfast Club and if he EVER found out his son was gay he would pull a Quinn-dad-move and set the microwave timer to 30 minutes.....actually he might not get that courtesy. :/
and
But yeah I dont think that Karofsky has EVER known how to handle his emotions. I was reading someone else's predictions/recap and she brought up a good point. In the eps after Finn joins the Glee club Karofsky throws his slushie into his face and tells him how he's been waiting to do that since he was 5 when he made fun of him for being the first kid to get pubes.


Lets assume that Finn and Karofsky were bff's/neighbors/whatever. Lets assume that they were trying to figure stuff out LIKE ALL KIDS DO (admittedly, someone saw mine when I was 5. kids hold no shame, I guess. :/) and Finn did make fun of him. Lets assume Karofsky didn't know that being different was such a bad thing, and since his bff couldn't accept him, that meant he's just wrong? Lets assume he grew up in a uber religious uber republican uber "you-better-not-be-gay" household and it scares the piss outta him, (and actually we will meet his parents as they're called into the office due to his bullying Kurt/etc. They also will claim that 'he's not like this @ home'. Wow.) Lets assume hes so angry and so depressed inside that he can't be himself like Kurt can be and all he EVER wanted to do was be himself with someone that would not only LET him but understood WHY, for once. And lets ALSO assume he spites Finn for accepting Kurt not only for being gay but enough to be close to be considered brothers, but heaven forbid he could receive the same, and he knew him longer. WTF, right?

and yeah, agree, I'd rather them cliffhang that they'll get together (willingkissbtwthetwoplsthx) @ the end of S2 and start S3 fresh w/ KURT.OF.SKY. Everywhere. muah~! hahaha

Re: COMMENT CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR FURT

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

Yes to everything you said. Just... YES.

[wickedground.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly. On all of this. Bravo :) *mems*

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :)

[justams.livejournal.com]

The math looks alright to me, but I'm no expert either. XD

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Well said. :)
I am both so excited and nervous for the next episode, I think we will have a much better idea of where they're taking this character after that, not to mention answers as to why he is the way he is. Given the way Max Adler has talken about the character I can't help but think he knows there are redeeming scenes in the future. I mean he knows what's in the episodes that are filmed, and he seems really positive and even excited about all this, so that makes me feel a little reassured that even if things first go very bad they will eventually get better. Or maybe I just read too much into things.

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

Given the way Max Adler has talked about the character I can't help but think he knows there are redeeming scenes in the future.

That's my hope exactly! And not just because I'm developing a big ol' celebrity crush on Max. I actually, genuinely care about Karofsky's redemption as a character. *maybe draws a few hearts, a little*

[justams.livejournal.com]

Me to. It's been a long time since I've felt this invested in a character on television, and cared this much about how their story goes. I think I'm just a sucker for redemption-type storylines, and when Max managed to do that whole kiss scene and fill it with so much raw emotion I was just blown away. I so badly want to see Karofsky change and grow. I think he's a very important character right now, if it's done right. And I'm way too nervous that they will screw this up.

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

I just hope members of the Glee writing team are reading your post. Is it at all humanly possible? Sigh. Last night I worried that they thought we were invisible.

IDK about the writers, but Max Adler certainly seems to have been self-Googling up a storm the last eight days. :) I have some theories about how the bullying arc will play out, thanks to comments from Ryan Murphy, et. al. I think it's going to get way worse for both of McKinley's known gay students before it gets better. There'll probably be more threats/locker shoves/other violence on Karofsky's part, and heaps more angst on both of their parts. But Ryan mentioned in an interview that [highlight for possible spoiler] the bullying arc won't just fizzle out after a couple episodes -- it's definitely the overarching theme of this season [end spoiler], so... we'll see, I guess? I think there's hope for Karofsky's redemption, but I don't think we'll be seeing him walking down the hall holding Kurt's hand anytime soon.

I also wanted to bash my head against a wall, esp. after I heard Karofsky say, "I.will.kill.you."

To me, that's just another facet of Karofsky's self-loathing homophobia. He's so desperate to stay as deeply closeted as possible, aside from the odd tackling of Kurt's lips with his own, that he'll say anything -- and probably believes he'll do anything to keep his sexuality hidden. Threats on Kurt's life are certainly not out of the question for him at this moment.

[kirke-novak.livejournal.com]

Fantastic meta.

I am also deeply saddened that people's love for Blaine and dislike of Dave as a person, makes them dislike this storyline. He jumped form a nobody and an extra to someone I want to know everything about because of one scene. He is beyond intriguing.

If they go with Karofsky's characertization wgere I think they'll go, I can see him asking Kurt out in the future, maybe even Kurt agreeing to date him for some time but undoubtedly, the issues that have will make it obvious that they can't be together. Not in canon, at least not in this season.

[And my god, how hilarious was Mercedes' "Gay, gay, gay, gay gay gay..." hallucination in tonight's episode?]

This scene made me go from "I hate you, Blaine, hate you, your stupid face, stupid advices, stupid voice and stupid perfect MarySueishness. Hate you. HATE you" to "LOL! Ok, ok, fine, you may stay. For now."

[kirke-novak.livejournal.com]

Oh and sorry but pet peeve: "learning difficulty", not "disability". Learning disability means you have an IQ below 70 and are unable to preform tasks you learned if the circumstances change. Learning difficulties can have anyone, no matter the IQ.

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

I find it difficult to follow what's currently politically correct, so I go by what Wikipedia tells me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_disability) [typical student, right?] most times. According to their article the terms are interchangeable, and a "learning disability is not indicative of intelligence level."

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

I am also deeply saddened that people's love for Blaine and dislike of Dave as a person, makes them dislike this storyline.

I can understand why people might feel that way. After all the crap Kurt's taken throughout the season and a third that we've known him, it's no wonder that a lot of people jump at the chance to see him happy with an adorable boy. But IDK, I feel like the shallow relationship he might have with Blaine [who is absolutely living vicariously through Kurt's courage] pales in comparison to what he might be able to have, one day in the future, with a more secure Karofsky. There's emotional turmoil there right now, but you saw the way he looked at Kurt. There's a possibility for some thing deep there.

[selenerainbow.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this, so much. Every last word.

I'd add on to it that I don't believe that Kurt and Karofsky could develop a healthy romantic relationship even IN two seasons. Mostly because- Karofsky's NOT a bad guy. He is, as you said, as much of a victim as Kurt in the sense that there are other forces in his life (forces which until now have remained unseen, at least until FURT, probably) that have made him into what he is.

However- Karofsky needs help. Psychiatric help to deal with anger issues, with his violence issues. A lifetime of rage and pain can't be cured so easily- and when dealing with it, forming a romantic relationship with someone who is as unstable as Karofsky can only mean danger for Kurt. If it happened in the future- I could accept it. Ship it even, because even though I'm against Kurtofsky as canon, I love them in Fanfiction.

But a Kurtofsky friendship? It would carry ALL the themes of redemption, of second chances, of forgiveness, and create an amazing storyline- without putting Kurt in the dangers that a romantic relationship with someone who needs to get help first would mean.

Excellent post, either way. <3

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

Karofsky needs help. Psychiatric help to deal with anger issues, with his violence issues. A lifetime of rage and pain can't be cured so easily- and when dealing with it, forming a romantic relationship with someone who is as unstable as Karofsky can only mean danger for Kurt. If it happened in the future- I could accept it. Ship it even, because even though I'm against Kurtofsky as canon, I love them in Fanfiction.

Oh, absolutely. And as appealing as the idea of more male/male kisses on my TV featuring Kurt and Karofsky is, a long time needs to pass between the punching and the kissing for it to be the result of a healthy relationship. I, personally, adore stories [and even prompts!] where they're both long out of high school when they encounter one another again, and strike up a relationship. But then -- they're high school students. And typically, high school students aren't really known for their positive life choices. So I think what might end up happening, if they go the romantic route for Kurt and Karofsky, is that they hook up earlier than they probably should, and there's a pretty angsty fallout because of it.

[selenerainbow.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you didn't blow up at me for that! xD Whenever I tend to say that in a Kurtofsky-oriented place I get forty people telling me to leave if I don't like the pairing. ;n; Which I obviously do- I just...I love Kurt more, if it makes sense. xD

But anyway.

I agree with this so much. Karofsky needs time- time to find himself, time to heal, time to be brave and come to terms with everything that has defined him thus far, and thus make a decision on who he will be.

If there were a sort of Epilogue- showing the Glee kids in the future, and we find Karofsky and Kurt happily together....I'd be damn happy for both of them. But if it is, as you say, Rushed- the way you described it is the only ending I can possibly see...and it won't turn out good for either of them.

[gleeker13.livejournal.com]

UM. I LOVE YOU. I LOVE YOUR MIND AND I LOVE YOU WORDS.

It's so great when other people can put into words EXACTLY what you can't.

I have faith in the writers, that should they go the direction of Kurt and Karofsky being friends (and I do, I admit, hope for them to be a bit more in the future~), they can pull it off. It will be tricky, it will be controversial, but my GOD will it be interesting. And considering I know I was one of the fans who's interest was starting to dwindle? What I need is an interesting storyline to string together the random messages and themes and side plots and characters. As an added plus, I have loved Kurt since I started watching Glee, and even if it is horribly angsty, I love seeing more of him.

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

I have faith in the writers, that should they go the direction of Kurt and Karofsky being friends (and I do, I admit, hope for them to be a bit more in the future~), they can pull it off.

God, I hope so. Because I was one of those viewers with a waning interest in the show, too, before this storyline kicked off. It was getting to the point where I was like, "Great, okay, they're singing, nothing's really happening -- I could totally just watch the on-campus a cappella choirs and get the same effect here..." and then BAM, Kurtofsky drama. *draws hearts*

[beatkicks.livejournal.com]

I don't know if Karofsky will be redeemed. Glee has certainly redeemed other bullies -- Puck wanted to flip a port-a-potty with Artie trapped inside, and now he and Artie are best buds; Finn used to throw pee balloons at Kurt and now they're comfortably cohabitating thanks to Burt and Carole. And a lot of people are saying that Karofsky has done things that are entirely irredeemable, especially when it comes to his raging [and self-loathing] homophobia. I think it'll get worse before it gets better in his case, and most likely to the detriment of Kurt's wellbeing. But for the sake of seeing more of Max Adler's fantastic acting -- and for the sake of all those other kids who hate themselves so much because of their upbringing or whatever else that they pick on the people who in reality are a lot like them -- I hope Karofsky does get redeemed.

THIS! Did everyone seem to forget that Puck used to beat people up? Like you said, he wanted to turn over a porta-potty with a paraplegic Artie inside? That he used to throw Kurt into dumpsters? That he used to slushy Rachel? People seem to love Artie and Pucks's friendship, I used to see so many people shipping Puck/Kurt, and people still love Puck/Rachel. Why is this so different? And why are Kurt/Karofsky shippers being looked at as if they have the plague?

And I hope you don't mind, but I posted that quote on my Tumblr (http://tobyziegler.tumblr.com/post/1609929277) with a link back to this post and some commentary of my own. :)

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

... why are Kurt/Karofsky shippers being looked at as if they have the plague?

Every fandom needs a villain. I think Kurt/Karofsky 'shippers have become those people who still 'shipped Buffy and Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer after the attempted rape and ensuing Pavlovian controversy at the end of season 6 to the rest of the Glee fandom. It's sort of a way of saying, "Well, okay, [pairing X] has its flaws, but it's nowhere near as bad as [pairing Y]!"

And I hope you don't mind, but I posted that quote on my Tumblr with a link back to this post and some commentary of my own.

Not at all! I thought your comments were great. :)

[Edited because LJ won't let me hide that spoiler, so whatevs. And also because I fail at punctuation.]

[carolina-hope.livejournal.com]

ILY

seriously, Im way more romantic then you but other then that, this is something I could have written and wish more people got to read because with all the rage going in the fandom these days people really seem to forget that you cant really stop the bullying if you dont stop the bully. and expelling his is not a solution, its like treating broken leg with a band aid

and your equation? perferct

[wine-carnation.livejournal.com]

So yeah, I'm late to the party, but posts like these are worth replying to even a month later.

Everything you said - I have read several times already in Karofsky-friendly LJs or Comms.

But DAMN, you say it so much better. All the replies, as well. I am totally friending half of the people on this page after I finish writing this ;)

(I'll admit, the reason for my love of Karofsky and Kurtofsky is that I've been unable to watch episodes 8-10 and 7 just plain bored me. So I've been stuck watching episode 6, again and again, and my imagination just went into overdrive from there on XDDDD )

So yeah. Thanks for another awesome POV on this. I really enjoyed reading yours :) May I friend? :)

[sparklpocalypse.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, I wish I could formulate a coherent reply to this, but I think I'll just point at your parentheses and say YES, THIS.

And by all means, friend away! :D